MCFly meets Miliband!

MCFly has tonight interviewed Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change Ed Miliband, who is in Manchester to launch a “smart metering” scheme. The brief interview (full transcript below) touched on the rise in climate denialism, nuclear options, financing and “what if the Tories get in”. We hope to follow it up with a longer (and trickier for him!) interview in the coming weeks...

How do you think that, besides statements from the Secretary of State, we can counter the counter the backsliding on public acceptance of the need to aggressively tackle climate change?

I think there are two things we need to do. First of all we need to sort out any problems or mistakes that there were. So whether that's to do with the IPCC or the UEA. I think the IPCC is going to look into its procedures, [with] the UEA there's an enquiry going on. You need to clear those things up. But then at the same time you need to say to people at the same time “look, whatever errors there are in the IPCC, or whatever allegations there are about the UEA doesn't undermine the overall climate science.”

We need to say it, I think scientists need to be more active in saying it it The NGOs obviously do say it. I think business needs to say it. I actually think Richard Lambert from the CBI said it well. He said “I'm not a scientist, I don't know much about science but I know a lot about risk.” I think that's a very good way of putting it. So I think we need to get out there and say the real picture to people.”

On Nuclear “Given the experience the Finns are having with one of the new 'easy to install' nuclear power plants we've been considering, and the still unresolved question of a safe, secure and long lasting storage solution for radioactive waste, is the much lauded push on new nuclear build really an answer to climate change?....”

I don't think any one single thing is an answer, but I think it [nuclear] is part of the answer. The Finnish situation is different from ours, we're precisely going through the so-called generic design assessment so we avoid the problems the Finns have seen. I understand the concerns that people have about nuclear but I actually think if they long hard look at the overwhelming threat that climate change poses I think you come to the conclusion, -or at least I've come to the conclusion- that nuclear is part the answer. Now that doesn't mean to say we shouldn't push on renewables which is very very important, but we also need nuclear in my opinion.

[MCFly is reminded of Chris Davies, Lib Dem MEP, saying as much about nuclear at the recent NWDA shindig that we eviscerated here.]

How do we realistically finance the tough measures a city like Manchester needs to take to h it our carbon targets- do we need a reformed or reinvigorated government bond regime?

I think there are all kinds of issues we should look at. I think what is clear is that we need the right system of incentives in place and we try and do that through our various obligations. I think we need a good/better system of financing. I will have more to say next week about fiancing for home energy efficiency and the way local authorities can be involved in that- they do have a central role to play in relation to climate change. I think the financing is difficult in the coming years but - you'd expect me to say this- but I think we need to do all we can to protect the money we've [spent- inaudible?] on climate change and low carbon.

Say we wake up on May 7 or whenever the election is- with a Conservative Government. What would you hope that climate concerned people did in that situation?

Nice try, but I'm afraid I'm not going to fall for it. Look, this election is winnable for the Labour Party. I think it's very important that we have a Labour Government, including on the issue of climate change. I don't think that the Tories are fully committed to important aspects of this agenda, including on renewables. Because when you hear what they say about on-shore wind, which I think is a part of the answer, along with off-shore wind, I think it should worry us. When Kenneth Clarke, the shadow business secretary, says we shouldn't have any on-shore turbines at all, that is really worrying. And so, the problem with the Tory Party is they see green as a piece of spin. It isn't a piece of spin, it should be about substance. So I am going to do all I can to re-elect a Labour Government.

Further reading-

Lib Dems Climate Pages

Tories' Climate Pages

Greens Climate Pages

The beginning of the end?

Ed Miliband, your government's climate change top bod, couldn't resist the Churchill allusion. Asked by the chair of tonight's huge public meeting for an inspirational summing up about Copenhagen (which happens to be the subject of a pretty cool cartoon by Marc Roberts), he reached for the “it's not the end, it's not even the beginning of the end, but it is the end of the beginning" line. And, through more gritted teeth (note to subs: do flies have teeth?) MCFly says he might be right...

The meeting took place at GMEx (or “Mancheste Central” for anyone not up with the very latest rebrand). It was confirmed less than two weeks ago, so a turnout of 5 to 600 or so (the biggest ever event on climate change in Manchester?) is a pretty good effort.
After useful “fluffing” by the ubiquitous Phil Korbel, we had the main event. Joining Ed “I like MCFly” Miliband were Mike Childs (campaigns lead for Friends of the Earth), Len Wardle of Co-op and Richard Leese, Council Leader and frequent target of MCFly snarks and questions. It was chaired by John Harris of the Guardian, who has been Ed's shadow of late.

Of especial interest to MCFly readers will be Richard Leese's launch of the “Manchester. A Certain Future” action plan. He started by telling his Labour Party colleague Ed “don't come back without a deal”.
He then said what he's said before, but bears repeating: The writing of the Action Plan (which is for the City, not just the Council) was a collective effort. It's been endorsed by the City Council, and the hope is by a lot more organisations and bodies in the coming year. (Most of the Council's greenatariat were in the audience) Behaviour change is vital, above and beyond the ambitious 41% target for reducing carbon dioxide emissions by 2020. But There'll be a separate blog post about this by MCFly's other editor, so, onwards to the “main event” (not to disparage the FOE and Co-op, who will be dealt with in a later blog post!).

Miliband was usefully brief, as usual. He looked at why the Copenhagen deal was needed. The science was indeed urgent (he'd been got to by Professor Kevin Anderson before the meeting), but also the world focussed in a way it had never been before. This he credited to the campaigners in the global movement. His fear had been that Copenhagen would pass without notice, but not any more. We were, he said, not where we need to be, and may not be by the end of the conference, but we would be closer.
He agreed with Mike Childs on the need for “maximum ambition” and laid out the government's 34% by 2020, 40% as part of a high ambition deal (NB this is not about embedded carbon; the UK has exported its emissions, as Dieter Helm makes clear in his Tanner lecture)
He puffed Gordon Brown as the guy who first put numbers on adaptation funding.
He emphasised that Copenhagen was not the end, or even the beginning of the end, and that what we've learned from other movements is the need to carry on. We need to “realise it's a long hard road and the people have to keep on it” (Chomsky, btw, says ditto. In the West people ask him what to do, expecting a magic bullet. In the rest of the world, they tell him all the things they're doing.)

The question and answer session was, even to this hardened activist, a little drawn out, and predictably threw up more heat than light. Not the chair's fault, or the panellists (mostly), but perhaps a lack of imagination in the questions, many of which could have been dealt with via a google search or visit to various government websites. That said, questions on engagement are always worth asking...

To this Q and A MCFly will return- our OCD was such that we took copious notes, but it's late and some of us have day jobs to go to, so time to triage.. Suffice to say Ed and Richard, politicians both, were scrupulous in answering all questions put to them (so people like us can't accuse 'em of ducking!) Leese was careful to say -in response to a pre-meeting snark- that there will be lots of opportunities for dialogue and discussion in the coming years. Can't wait...


Props to:
Manchester Friends of the Earth and also the Department of Energy and Climate Change for putting it on in short time frame.
Ed Miliband for not talking out the clock and calling it like he sees it, and doing less ducking and weaving than you'd expect
More than half a thousand or so Mancunians for coming out and sitting still for a loooong meeting of middle-aged middle-class white men (this is not how a social movement should look, says one middle-aged middle-class white male)

Maybe next time we could have the chair encourage people to talk to the person behind them for a bit (it works, even in a tiered lecture theatre) to create some weak ties. Maybe even name badges? It all helps with the coercive mingling that should be a sine qua non of these events, and might even move things towards the elusive “two thumbs up” rating. Much else to say, some of it worth reading, but a Climate Slamdown day summary has yet to be written, and proof-read...

After the Wave, the Eddie...

Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change Ed Miliband will take part in a public rally in Manchester on the 8th December at Manchester Central. This event is jointly hosted by DECC and Friends of the Earth Manchester and it will be Ed Miliband’s last event before he travels to Copenhagen, and an opportunity for participants to take part in a Q & A discussion.

The Leader of Manchester City Council has been invited to attend and will use this opportunity to launch the city's stakeholder climate change action plan, Manchester: A Certain Future.

This event will take place:

Tuesday 8 December,

Doors at 5PM for a start at 6:30PM

The Exchange Auditorium, Manchester Central (ex G-Mex)

If you wish to attend, please email RSVP@decc.gsi.gov.uk, with Manchester, 8 December in the subject line. Please make sure to include your name and names of people who wish to attend with you if relevant. You will receive a confirmation by email that your tickets have been booked.

Miliband Q and A at Manchester Report, Sat 4th

Ed Miliband Q and A at the Manchester Report.

Of course, this was happening at the same time...

(For a sickeningly sycyophantic account of his speech, click here.)

First questioner describing self as “oldest solar pioneer in the room." His observation was that the crisis in how we relate to the planning machine. The local good versus the public good (a phrase Miliband re-heard as local versus national good, and liked)

EM turned it round and said “what's the solution?” Better training for planners? Questioner thought planners didn't have sufficient scientific training.

Second questioner asking for government leadership, citing example of 30 million cars pumping out fuel during congestion, air quality/health issues around this.

Third questioner asking him to comment on jury's decision in Drax coal train case.
EM says “Lord Chief Justice here would surely advise me not to. He did however say he was “in favour of peaceful action.” Call me a talmudic scholar already, but 'peaceful' is not the same as 'lawful'. He is not, here, saying non-violent direct action that breaks the law is wrong... If I was a tabloid hack I'd have led this blog post with “Miliband endorses non-violent direct action!!!”
[Disclaimer- I asked the question, and it was stupid. I SHOULD have said, “I'm donating £29 to help them pay their costs, will you join me?” That would have a) put him on the spot and b) alerted other audience members to the opportunity. Sometimes I am a numpty...]

I also asked him, given his repeated request for a mass movement, “what can we do to hold your feet to the fire.”

He answered this by saying he had anxiety that there was- as there should be- a detailed conversation about carbon capture and storage, but not enough focus on global issues. He pointed out these are big big questions (one region in China planning to build 40 Kingsnorth equivalents in the next decade, I think)
He said therefore not a sufficiently global movement: “hold my feet to the fire on domestic and Copenhagen, but don't forget the global.”

Fourth Questioner on the difference between cycling rates in Holland and Britian

Miliband became enthused here! In Holland lots and lots of short journeys by bike. Partly to do with lots of racks at stations.

EM “I got into trouble by saying people shouldn't object ot wind turbines. In end it comes down to political persuasion, persuading people the bigger threat tot he countryside is climate change.

Fifth on what to do about training (young people)

Sixth questioner his opinion on increasing petrol prices to lower consumption

Seven questioner political trust and credibility in a bad place. One way to get it is to achieve things. We need to hear about the achievements and only then can momentum be built.

Miliband talked about achievements (18% lower than 1990 figures, he claimed, but this excludes aviation and some other stuff, and what about the embedded carbon in imports!!) and from June this year Carbon budgets in every decision. He compares this to 1997 when Treasury far more resistant

[NB See Jonatahn Porritt's parting shot at HMT in today's Absurder)

He got heckled about 5 year versus 1 year reporting and dealt with it very slickly- turned it over to Bryony Worthington, one of the Manchester Report panellists, who'd campaigned with FOE and then joined DEFRA to draft 'the Big Ask'. She points out the government has to put out an annual report.

Miliband mentions a 16 year old girl at an earlier event saying “there should be a green work register” so that people like her can do some/get involved. He thinks it's a good idea.

On petrol prices- over time price pressure will go up, in both high and low carbon world. Job of government is to ensure implemented in fair way, most vulnerable are protected.

Unstable oil prices not good, need stability for planning.

Eighth questioner is the Google guy on panel asks Miliband “What advice for Obama?”

EM “doing well, huge pressures, 60 Senate votes needed for domestic legislation, 67 for international treaty (i.e. Copenhagen).
Be as ambitious as possible.

“We need Japan and Australia... we nee everyone to be more ambitious.
For devel countries we need more Finance and Technical co-operation (i.e. Transfer)

He cites leaders summit in Italy next week. (see Grauniad article on this)

Ninth Questioner: Then two question from one guy (that's really selfish and bad manners. You'd never catch MCFly people doing that, oh no) First on CCS. Questioner claims 30% more energy required, therefore not ahead. Miliband deals with it well, points out yes more energy, but you ARE ahead because you've buried that carbon plus more.

Second is on population as the elephant in the room, cancelling out gains from emissions cuts etc

Miliband says “well, development, education and women's rights.”

The questioner then interrupts and talks about policies that are encouraging more births, but cites Germany and Australia. Miliband points out that these aren't the countries where the growth in population is massive!!

[Comment: Miliband dealt with this very well, IMHO. As I said in the other post, he could have dealt with it even better by reading and citing a recent article by the wonderful Fred Pearce of the New Scientist. Pearce highlights that the growth in consumption in the already-over-developed (my words) world will actually outstrip population growth in the developing world. i.e. The problem is still us fat white Westerners.

Questioner Ten “What role for local authorities?”

Miliband asks the woman where she is from, she says Kirklees and he gets enthused.
EM- they led with energy insulation, went door to door. He asks her to speak about it all, and she does, but I can't read my writing and am obviously too patriarchal to have caught what she said.

He comes back and says LAS can play a lot more of a role. Giving LAs responsibility for Carbon Budgets. Have some effect at local level, make LAs as free as possible for experiments, e.g. Lower council tax in exchange for insulation.

Questioner Eleven "Why cabinet colleagues so unpersuaded by New Green Deal?"
Miliband reckons they are “increasingly persuaded” 21 of the stimulus green. Announcement soon on £400m investment fund. “Can always do more.” The way we calculatie doesn't take into account already built in money. Government becoming greener, carbon budgets etc.

Miliband finished off talking about “our historical responsibility for what's already up in the air. [but] we could shut down EU tomorrow, developing world growth would still take us over two degrees . If you don't tackle coal, at least 2 to 3 times more expansive to solve the problem. More electricity need, not more emissions.

“If people have more questions, get in touch with me, milibande@parliament.uk

As he left, the chair of the panel thanked him for coming and answering so many questions.

Ed Miliband strikes again

The last time the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change, Ed Miliband, was up in Manchester, I blogged- through gritted teeth- that the man had done good. It gives me no pleasure (see disclaimer at the very end of this post) to Report that he has done gone and done good again.

Again, as disclaimed in the last post, nothing nice below is meant to excuse or go easy on UK government policy. They've only got to 18% below 1990 (and those are disputed figures- it depends how you count and what you don't count) because of the “dash for gas”. As we reported in the latest MCFly, Kevin Anderson of the Tyndall Centre has calculated that if the world follows the UK, that gives us only a 50/50 chance of staying below 2 degrees above pre-Industrial global temperature rise. Not good odds.

That said, I don't see what more- on a personal level- you can expect from a politician than she/he a)turns up in spirit as well as flesh, b) doesn't overuse precious time (he again kept the ratio of his introductory remarks to total time at about 1 to 4), and c) actually listens to questions and answers them coherently and concisely. I don't know where Ed Miliband got his “working a room” skills. Maybe from his rather cool dad? Maybe he just honed them himself? But – and this is the strangest compliment I will ever pay a Cabinet minister- he wouldn't have been out of place in an anarcha-feminist gathering of Climate Campers. He was judicious in seeking out female speakers, was neither patronising or over-solicitous, turned questions around, sought more information etc. I know several self-proclaimed “non-hierarchicals” who could learn a thing or three from watching this Labour Party (stodgy hierarchical) and Cabinet (powerful bearpit hierarchical) minister operate.

One final point. Miliband was asked a question about population, and answered it very well- that the way to solve that is development, women's education and empowerment. He could have done even better if he read and cited a recent article by the wonderful Fred Pearce of the New Scientist. Pearce highlights that the growth in consumption in the already-over-developed (my words) world will actually outstrip population growth in the developing world. i.e. The problem is still us fat white Westerners.

Here's the gist of his speech. He was miked up, and maybe they intend to release it as a podcast. If so, we will link to it. The Q and A session will be blogged separately.

Miliband opened by saying that, after the highly technical presentations, he “constituted the light entertainment”. He congratulated the Manchester International Festival and Guardian for putting it on, flagged that the Q and A was most interesting part and then said (I paraphrase)

He said that while technological answers are important, the 'small p' political answers really matter. Any technological answers require political will and political support. The 'group of the persuaded' is not big enough and therefore we won't get the change now and /or we won't be able to sustain the changes we implement.

We're negotiating the Copenhagen deal but have got to create consensus, both within the UK but also with developing countries.
Got to get a consensus that spans democracies and non-democracies.
Got to get a consensus that outlasts administrations
Massive and historical ask
These (technological) solutions are necessary but not sufficient.

Four ingredients to meeting the challenge-

1) Expanding circle of convinced. Convince people of the scale of the problem.
He cited the recent UKCIP information. He feels most people aren't deniers but think it will happen to someone else- not them or their immediate family. He cited people in his Doncaster constituency, who've suffered flooding (canoes on high street).

2) Got to persuade people there's a better life in all this
Governments and NGOs got to be better.
Got to explain that life will be more secure (e.g. Energy supplies)
Better air quality
Improved community
Miliband again cited Transition Town movement, and that he was at the Brixton gathering as a “Keynote listener- something I recommend to all members of the Cabinet [this from memory]”

Miliband then cited a presentation from the morning session, which I am pretty sure he wasn't at, so had actually read up on. It was the “Cambridge Carbon Footprint” presentation, of which more in a separate blog post.

He pointed out the “you should do this” message doesn't work, but the “lots' of others are doing it, you can too” is more effective. [George Monbiot on behavioural evolution]

3) Government Leadership matters
e.g. With Carbon capture and storage. Levy which will increase consumers bills, electricity bills
Environmental Transformation Fund
Government needs to get its own house in order

4) Danger of defeatism
Fear that the problem is too big, individuals too small
Question of how to aggregate individual actions, convince people they can be part of a bigger whole.
Miliband mused that government has thought about individuals (Act on CO2 campaign) and national level, but not thought enough about communities.
Gave the example of British Gas' “Green Street” competition, run between various streets and roads called Green. He visited one of the winners. Points out that people over-achieved on the targets- as soon as had meters/monitors, this affects behaviour.
It was also a galvanising force for communities.

Scientists have an important role telling us about dangers such as Arcitc sea ice etc but important to calibrate message.

Final point- best campaigns and individual actions combine
a) what people do themselves and
b) what they persuade governments to do
Big campaigns and mobilisations that change history- slavery, votes for women, gay rights.
At first impossible, then afterwards you can't find anyone who didn't agree all along.
Most important thing is much bigger INTERNATIONAL mobilisation.
NGOs critique own governments, which is important, but there needs to be a bigger ask.
This is not about a few months, but an enduring campaign [See here for an excellent essay about the dangers of a post-Copenhagen dip in activism]

In closing, Miliband was as uncomplimentary about the Make Poverty History campaign as I have heard anyone be (not directly, but admitting many people were dissatisfied) “came and sort of died away” Climate change will need a “continuing worldwide movement.”

Because he kept his remarks brief, there was actually enough time for a rather good Q and A session. That will be the subject of a separate blog post, to be typed up as soon as I can.

Disclaimer: Our eyes met across a crowded(ish) room (the Great Hall at Castle Grayskull). We waved to each other. I took over the latest MCFly, which name-checks him. He shook my hand and said “I like your blogging.” And thus was a fearless community journalist turned into a tame pussycat, purring with delight at the recognition from a Secretary of State. It really was that simple.

Ed Miliband in Manchester

On Friday 15th May, Ed Miliband, the Secretary of State for Energy & Climate Change answered questions from an interested audience at a theatre in Chorlton for well over an hour.

This post will be expanded by Saturday 23rd, but for now the following observations will have to do.

The event was hosted and chaired capably and without any unnecessary self-promotion ofrflim-flam by Lucy Powell, who is a prospective Labour candidate at the next election (anyone taking bets?!)

Miliband seemed understandably nervous and at pains to Make No Excuses for the grotesque expenses scandal. [It emerged in the following day's Telegraph that he himself has got a very very clean bill of health]

He seemed very well briefed indeed, and fluent in defending Government policy. [Yes, I know you'd expect that comes as standard for Cabinet ministers, but you'd be surprised: I've seen a couple of trainwrecks in my time.]
He DIDN'T use up half the allotted hour and 20 minutes with some idiotic anodyne speech full of platitudes, in an effort to talk out the clock/minimise exposure to un-mediated questions. His opening remarks were, as he'd advertised, brief.

He seemed (again, I am aware of the Marxian maxim that "sincerity is everything; once you can fake that, you've got it made") genuinely interested in hearing suggestions that people had.

Nothing above or below is meant to excuse or praise Government policy, or to imply that the British State's response to climate change is in any immediate danger of becoming adequate. Let's keep things in perspective here...

He was asked a series of questions about aviation, nuclear energy, Kingsnorth, the climate bill, the science of climate change, protest transport, Copenhagen, snouts in trough etc. He didn't, to my eye, outrageously duck or weave or dissemble.

Below are a few verbatim quotes scribbled down.

On Transition Towns (he is going to the conference next week)
"It's the kind of thing you worry about. Government gets its hands on it, might be just the thing to strangle the movement."

On Carbon Capture and Storage
"Unless we get CCS to work, we're completely stuffed."

On UK targets (in response to one of a series of Friends of the Earth questioners)
"We need to go bigger than 34% by 2020 (but we are part of the EU negotiations)

Although I left early, I'm told there were no major surprises in the last 15 minutes. All in all, he emerged with his dignity and credibility intact and even enhanced
.